那么，拉特尔怎样评价自己的接班人呢？拉特尔说的是德语（括号里翻译成英语）
He was asked to assess them in Die Welt.
Here’s the judge’s verdict:
Die Welt: Gustavo Dudamel.
Rattle: An ihm mag ich Wärme, Gefühle, Großzügigkeit. (I like him a lot)
Die Welt: Andris Nelsons.
Rattle: Er hat so viel Fantasie, Freude und Unbefangenheit. (Lots of fanstasy, joy and ease)
Die Welt: Mariss Jansons.
Rattle: Er ist der Beste von uns allen! (the best of us all)
Die Welt: Riccardo Chailly.
Rattle: Mmmm. Er ist der andere Beste von uns. Schwieriger zu charakterisieren. (Schweigen) Ich mag seine Konzerte sehr, mir fehlen aber jetzt die Worte. (Schweigen) Er hat Tiefe und Fluss. In einer verrückten Weise empfinde ich ihn als den jüngsten unserer Gastdirigenten.
(the other best of us all)
Die Welt: Daniel Barenboim.
Rattle: Ja! Was kann man sagen? Er ist Musik von Grund auf. (what can you saY? He’s music from the ground up)
Die Welt: Christian Thielemann.
Rattle: Er besitzt eine wirklich erstaunliche Fähigkeit zu bekommen, was er will … sehr eindrucksvoll … (He has…  a truly amazing ability to get what he wants).

顺着观点一再讨论，在柏林爱乐团员们的心目中，Sibelius, Stravinsky, Shostakovich 和 Beethoven, Brahm ...
scfan 发表于 2015-4-7 14:12

蒂勒曼是喜欢德国作品，可是他指挥的德国作品真的好么？前头贴的那个《英雄》现场我觉得相当臭啊，好像他要改变速度的时候乐团经常弄不清他到底要什么速度，导致乱成一团。还有，第一乐章结尾那块儿，小号是成心忽然闭嘴了么……

那么，拉特尔怎样评价自己的接班人呢？拉特尔说的是德语（括号里翻译成英语）
He was asked to assess the ...
Billchen 发表于 2015-4-7 14:31

呵呵，反正老子要走了，捡好听的说吧。只是到最后一位，不知是实在找不出好词儿来了，还是压根儿看不上他。

蒂勒曼是喜欢德国作品，可是他指挥的德国作品真的好么？前头贴的那个《英雄》现场我觉得相当臭啊，好像 ...
Rozinante 发表于 2015-4-7 15:57

兄是否第一个乐章没听完就弃剧了？我觉得后面三个乐章很不错，符合我在上海大剧院听到他勃一、布七的水准。最后的结尾有点太过克制，不过仍然不失水准。首乐章的确乱些，毕竟现场这样的情况很多。

当然各花各香，也请兄举个差不多40-60岁左右当世的指挥德奥作品尚佳的例子，我来看看我俩儿的口味差异有多大

兄是否第一个乐章没听完就弃剧了？我觉得后面三个乐章很不错，符合我在上海大剧院听到他勃一、布七的水 ...
scfan 发表于 2015-4-7 16:05

后面没有那么乱套，但是对我来说也没啥大惊喜。我感觉他总是那个套路。

现在的音乐家我关注得不太多。对于德奥浪漫主义这一块，他们好像确实没什么可说的了，要么拾人牙慧，要么胡说八道。不过即使如此我还是不情愿把蒂勒曼当个宝贝。

刚才听了几个Nelsons指挥的片段，勃拉姆斯第四感觉很不错啊。没听过他的完整录音，但我已经有点喜欢这个小伙儿了。s兄有现场录音的话传一两场听听？

找到了一个Nelsons指挥巴伐利亚广播的勃四现场录音，很喜欢，尤其末乐章。我就选他了！

找到了一个Nelsons指挥巴伐利亚广播的勃四现场录音，很喜欢，尤其末乐章。我就选他了！
Rozinante 发表于 2015-4-7 22:07

勃四是兄台的挚爱啊，我也喜欢。

scfan 发短消息 发表于 3 小时前
是网上的资源吗？能否给个链接？
--------------

我昨天搜出来的：
http://pan.baidu.com/wap/link?uk ... 0170871&third=0

The Classical Commentator
Opinion/commentary

The Berlin countdown: Christian Thielemann

Posted by Andrew R. Barnard
on Mar 31, 2015       

We’re getting ever closer to the Berlin Philharmonic’s vote for their next principal conductor on May 11th. Right now, it’s probably safe to say that the most discussed candidate for the job is Christian Thielemann. From the moment Simon Rattle announced he’d be leaving in 2018, speculation that Thielemann will be his successor has been widespread. Thielemann is in the middle of a very successful reign with the Staatskapelle Dresden, and as a German, he has unmissable connections with the Berliners.

But I’m less than fully enthused about the idea. True, Thielemann has been splendid in some of the central Germanic repertoire, certainly in a much more traditional sense than Rattle. Thielemann would undoubtedly be a throwback, which is why many who miss the Karajan years want to see him land the job. All the same, isn’t his repertoire a bit limited? He doesn’t have experience outside of the German classics, and it’s hard to imagine him becoming a champion of Mahler, Sibelius, Stravinsky, and Shostakovich, to list a few of the composers the orchestra has performed to great acclaim under Rattle. If the Berliners think Thielemann has special things to say in Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, or Strauss, why not invite him to record cycles on their new label without giving him the reigns? Frankly, I worry that Thielemann isn’t charismatic or forward-looking enough for the job. Innovation has been a prime ingredient in Rattle’s tenure, and to see the orchestra narrow its repertoire would be disappointing.

If Thielemann lands the job, I’ll follow him with great enthusiasm. It just seems that other conductors are more suited. Stay tuned and feel free to join in the discussion.

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1 Comment

Alexander Hall
April 1, 2015
Have no fear, it won’t be Thielemann the Berliners choose. They are not stupid and nor is he. He has gone on the record to say that when he and the Dresden orchestra first made music together, it was a complete meeting of minds. Their devotion to him is absolute. He has already exercised his considerable influence to get rid of a chief executive (Serge Dorny) who threatened to interfere in matters of artistic policy, and he has a first-rate opera house at his disposal whenever he desires a break from purely symphonic concerts. The Berliners are not likely to choose anybody who has repeatedly picked fights with management when he hasn’t got his own way. Nuremberg, Deutsche Oper Berlin and the Munich Philharmonic could say a lot about a man who calls the tune even though he doesn’t pay the piper.
Of course the Berliners want to work with all the leading conductors of the age and Thielemann is one of them – he knows more about Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner and Richard Strauss than Rattle will ever know about the rest of the orchestral repertory. But it is only respect that binds them together in concerts, nothing deeper than that. The beaming that you can see on the faces of the players when Kirill Petrenko conducts them, for instance, is entirely absent in the case of Thielemann.

http://www.theclassicalcommentat ... ristian-thielemann/

还有前面提到的西门对几个候选人的点评以及后续跟进的网络评论
http://slippedisc.com/2015/04/si ... -likely-successors/

貌似所有的英语评论都对蒂勒曼不服，尤其蒂勒曼取代的是一位英国爵士，更让英语世界的乐评同仇敌忾，对德国乐团的沦陷大打抱不平。

这些评论里面，有的直接抨击蒂勒曼不行，有得迂回进攻，先恭维一下，然后抱怨蒂勒曼的曲目范围太窄。曲目范围宽如西门拉特，不是已被柏林人赶走了么？

西门本人甚至搬出了扬颂斯和巴伦博伊姆，要知道这两人本身的辈份都要比西门高半辈，扬颂斯的身体状态早已不堪重负，巴伦则是西门入主柏林时的手下败将。搬两个毫无竞争力的老前辈出来，西门的评论，俺看不到任何风度。

借用评论中的一句话，柏林人又不傻，最后的选择必然是最好的选择。柏林人等待这一天已经很久了。

scfan 发短消息 发表于 1 小时前
多谢资源，听了一下，水平不错，不过离蒂勒曼似乎还是差距不小吧？他师父扬颂斯本人都不太擅长这个。

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我觉得不必总提洋葱是Nelsons的师傅，更不必以洋葱来推断他的水平。洋葱是很提携他，但我听起来他的指挥风格跟洋葱并不一样。这个勃四，我觉得他的整体布局和细节刻画都有些独到之处，很难得。弦乐有点单薄大概是乐团的问题，巴伐的小提琴我觉得一直是这个声音。

蒂勒曼的勃四我没听过。我印象里他指挥德奥浪漫作品就是一味地厚重，加上速度上任性一点。细品之下他并没说出什么东西来。常听人说他的结构好，我是没发现。

拉特尔受欢迎不仅仅是在英语世界吧（其实美国乐迷好像总的来说很瞧不上英国音乐家）。他推广的那些现代音乐确实很难听，但这也是古典音乐保持活力的需要。都像蒂勒曼一样满足于模仿前辈的话，古典音乐死得更快。

柏林是一座充满朝气的现代大都市，不是保守的普鲁士国都。没记错的话，前一阵德累斯顿搞反穆斯林游行的时候，柏林还搞了“反反穆斯林”的游行哩。我不大担心柏林会选这么一个保守又带有明显政治倾向的指挥。

年轻人我支持Nelsons，老的巴伦。可惜咱没有投票权啊。不过十几大神马的咱们也没有投票权，不一样围观得不亦乐乎么。

scfan 发短消息 发表于 13 分钟前
如果把德奥音乐划一个圈子，其他音乐划另一个圈子的话，那么扬颂斯就是那另一个圈子的领袖，在活着的指挥里，当之无愧。Nelsons如果说和扬颂斯有什么差别的话，应该差的是水平，而不是风格。

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按这种划法，除了蒂勒曼，德奥音乐这个圈子还有谁啊？拉特尔，海丁克他们都是杨松斯的手下么？